Freeman558 Posted April 20, 2017 Report Share Posted April 20, 2017 And this is, in my opinion, why most coupe's seem to fail. That little thing is expected to have over 205bhp giving it more power than both the last Celica and the GT86. Which is by no means something limited to Toyota, any company that has produced a coupe recently seems to think that the body shape alone will sell the car "It looks fast, doesn't need to be fast" appears to be the line from car manufacturers. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EasyRight89 Posted April 20, 2017 Report Share Posted April 20, 2017 1 hour ago, Freeman558 said: And this is, in my opinion, why most coupe's seem to fail. That little thing is expected to have over 205bhp giving it more power than both the last Celica and the GT86. Which is by no means something limited to Toyota, any company that has produced a coupe recently seems to think that the body shape alone will sell the car "It looks fast, doesn't need to be fast" appears to be the line from car manufacturers. Really well put, totally agree with this! Seems companies are happy to dish a load of power into hot hatches, but not into coupes. Shame really. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dublet Posted April 20, 2017 Author Report Share Posted April 20, 2017 GT4 anyone? Problem with performance is that it costs a lot. The Top Gear review of the ST205 by Clarkson mentions just how expensive it was compared to rivals.Sent from my Nexus 9 using Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Freeman558 Posted April 21, 2017 Report Share Posted April 21, 2017 48 minutes ago, dublet said: GT4 anyone? Problem with performance is that it costs a lot. The Top Gear review of the ST205 by Clarkson mentions just how expensive it was compared to rivals. Sent from my Nexus 9 using Tapatalk Rivals? I hope he wasn't talking about the cars I mentioned earlier. The GT4 rivals or at least the cars that the GT4 was meant to compete with would be Evo IV's and Impreza WRX's. I would be surprised if it was pricey in comparison to them. Also, the 4WD would bump the price up over a 2WD car. My argument was always that the manufacturers always seemed to put more powerful engines into saloons or hatchbacks instead of their Coupe's. Corolla T-Sport? Why didn't they put that super charger on the T-sport or GT? Ok it's only an extra 25hp but it takes it over the 200 mark. Ignoring JDM models, The Honda Prelude never got as powerful H22a engine as the Accord Type R received and never received the Type R treatment as "It was already a sports car" But, maybe you're right, the GT4 should, by my own logic and arguement, have sold better, maybe not as well as the Impreza's and Evo's but certainly much better than it did. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cal670 Posted April 21, 2017 Report Share Posted April 21, 2017 Coupes are a fashion item aswell as a car, and this has been the case for many, many years. Alot of (but not all) people who buy coupes brand new, are more concerned about looking good than going fast. They want people in the streets to see their stylish, and expensive car, and recognize their wealth and status. The performance is secondary to them, since they want to travel at a speed where they'll get noticed. With the state of the roads nowadays, the increase in traffic over the last 20 years, not to mention the speed cameras and speed traps going up, there seems to be less and less point in having a really powerful car. IMO, handling is the most important performance characteristic in a car, and I think it's more true now than ever before. Atleast with a Celica, you can actually use the power you have most of the time, and not have to worry to speed limits too much. I would rather own a lower power car with an amazing chassis, than something than can do 0-60 in 5 seconds or so. I find it satisfying to drive a car which you can rev, but not get yourself into trouble. Just my thoughts, nothing more. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dublet Posted April 21, 2017 Author Report Share Posted April 21, 2017 18 hours ago, Freeman558 said: Rivals? I hope he wasn't talking about the cars I mentioned earlier. The GT4 rivals or at least the cars that the GT4 was meant to compete with would be Evo IV's and Impreza WRX's. I would be surprised if it was pricey in comparison to them. Also, the 4WD would bump the price up over a 2WD car. My argument was always that the manufacturers always seemed to put more powerful engines into saloons or hatchbacks instead of their Coupe's. Corolla T-Sport? Why didn't they put that super charger on the T-sport or GT? Ok it's only an extra 25hp but it takes it over the 200 mark. Ignoring JDM models, The Honda Prelude never got as powerful H22a engine as the Accord Type R received and never received the Type R treatment as "It was already a sports car" But, maybe you're right, the GT4 should, by my own logic and arguement, have sold better, maybe not as well as the Impreza's and Evo's but certainly much better than it did. Here's Tiff about the ST185 and the MR2: And Clarkson destroying the ST202 in a bit about coupes: And then about the GT4: So, the gen 6 was: too ugly; and, too expensive. But that first video is really making me want to get a 5. By your logic the MR2 should've been a bit of a sales success, which I don't think it was. Toyota used to put its most powerful engines in its coupes, the 3S-GTE and 7M-GTE, 1JZ-GTE. That changed with the 7. 1 hour ago, Cal670 said: Coupes are a fashion item aswell as a car, and this has been the case for many, many years. Alot of (but not all) people who buy coupes brand new, are more concerned about looking good than going fast. They want people in the streets to see their stylish, and expensive car, and recognize their wealth and status. The performance is secondary to them, since they want to travel at a speed where they'll get noticed. With the state of the roads nowadays, the increase in traffic over the last 20 years, not to mention the speed cameras and speed traps going up, there seems to be less and less point in having a really powerful car. IMO, handling is the most important performance characteristic in a car, and I think it's more true now than ever before. Atleast with a Celica, you can actually use the power you have most of the time, and not have to worry to speed limits too much. I would rather own a lower power car with an amazing chassis, than something than can do 0-60 in 5 seconds or so. I find it satisfying to drive a car which you can rev, but not get yourself into trouble. Just my thoughts, nothing more. Coupes may be a bit of a fashion item, but so are the Fiat 500. Ironically I think the 500 Abarth is quite desirable. The fact is though that the lower powered versions will always outsell the higher powered ones, simply as most people want a good looking car but the best fuel economy, or simply the lowest cost car. And of course, when Toyota made a superb handling coupe with a low power engine that's very usable, what do people do? Complain about a lack of power! Looking at the US sales for the Scion FR-S (which is what the GT86 is sold as in the States), we get the following sales figures: Scion FR-S 2016 7.457 2015 10.507 2014 14.062 2013 18.327 2012 11.417 Looks like it sold worse than the gen 6! I think at the moment only Audi are making a decent coupe in the TT. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Freeman558 Posted April 21, 2017 Report Share Posted April 21, 2017 (edited) 54 minutes ago, dublet said: I think at the moment only Audi are making a decent coupe in the TT. I suppose it depends on what you want from the car. I see the Audi TT in the same way as I see a Superdry Jacket. They are a pretty common sight. I don't doubt it's a very good car and I only need to leave the house to see how popular it is but I'm not sure I would want to own one. As for the MR2, should it have sold better? Probably but I thought the 2nd one had lost what made the original so good. It became too big but was still only a 2 seater sports car even though it closer to the size of a 2+2 coupe. If they had kept something closer to the original dimensions it may have been better received, Or maybe everyone would have still bought MX-5's instead. I'm not really sure what the augument here is, if I am honest. I suppose what I am saying, is my criticism of most modern coupes has been their lack of power compared to more sensible and practical cars from that manufacturers range. But maybe they are just all shit compared to the TT and that's why they failed to sell. To be perfectly honest, I liked driving around in a car that no one else had (even though it was a long way from perfect) that people didn't know what it was and while I don't have that now and even tho there is a Gen7 with full GT kit in spitting distance of where I live and gloss black, modified Gen7 even closer than that.I like that my GT isn't so common as to be a Superdry Jacket. Even if said jacket was better than what I choose to wear. So, I sort of don't mind that they didn't sell well... Kinda makes me want to get a Gen6 GT4 Edited April 21, 2017 by Freeman558 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dublet Posted April 21, 2017 Author Report Share Posted April 21, 2017 As for the MR2, should it have sold better? Probably but I thought the 2nd one had lost what made the original so good. It became too big but was still only a 2 seater sports car even though it closer to the size of a 2+2 coupe. If they had kept something closer to the original dimensions it may have been better received, Or maybe everyone would have still bought MX-5's instead. That's exactly what Toyota did with the MR-S, still sold as well as hot dog turds. And people kept on buying MX5s. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Freeman558 Posted April 21, 2017 Report Share Posted April 21, 2017 13 minutes ago, dublet said: That's exactly what Toyota did with the MR-S, still sold as well as hot dog turds. And people kept on buying MX5s. Yeah, I should have added "and looked good" to that, although the MX-5 would still likely have out sold it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bricktop Posted April 24, 2017 Report Share Posted April 24, 2017 The main problem at least for the UK is that people still generally hold the German brands as prestige. Unlike Toyota and Honda which are still seen as mainstream akin to Ford and Vauxhall. The Audi TT was a huge success yet the likes of the Gen 7 although most likely a more sporty car and more reliable had an interior made of crisp packets. Generally English are very vain and prefer soft touch plastics and a upmarket badge over engineering and driving feel. You sit in a Gen 5 or 6 and then sit in Gen 7 and it doesn't feel anywhere near as nice or solid. On 21/04/2017 at 21:44, dublet said: That's exactly what Toyota did with the MR-S, still sold as well as hot dog turds. And people kept on buying MX5s. That's how fickle people are. The MK3 MR2 is a better roadster than a MK2 without question. Faster, more focused, more efficient, doesn't rust as bad with the only downside being storage. Mazda have built such a strong reputation with the MX5 that they would have too build an absolute turd to lose its affordable roadster crown. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dublet Posted April 26, 2017 Author Report Share Posted April 26, 2017 On 24/04/2017 at 09:54, bricktop said: The main problem at least for the UK is that people still generally hold the German brands as prestige. Unlike Toyota and Honda which are still seen as mainstream akin to Ford and Vauxhall. The Audi TT was a huge success yet the likes of the Gen 7 although most likely a more sporty car and more reliable had an interior made of crisp packets. Generally English are very vain and prefer soft touch plastics and a upmarket badge over engineering and driving feel. You sit in a Gen 5 or 6 and then sit in Gen 7 and it doesn't feel anywhere near as nice or solid. That's how fickle people are. The MK3 MR2 is a better roadster than a MK2 without question. Faster, more focused, more efficient, doesn't rust as bad with the only downside being storage. Mazda have built such a strong reputation with the MX5 that they would have too build an absolute turd to lose its affordable roadster crown. It's quite ironic Mercedes is seen as high quality when they have had some very serious quality problems. But then again, so have Toyota. The 2003 Avensis I had, had very flimsy interior and was falling apart in a way that my gen 5 or 6 never would even contemplate. It has to be said that the sales figures quoted in my initial post were US ones, not the UK ones, so the snob factor only holds true in the sense that there's plenty of people who see Japanese cars as inferior to the ones from Ford, GM or Chrystler. Personally, the biggest reason I haven't got rid of the GT4 is that there's no decent replacement. Well, the TT, but I don't want one of them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slybunda Posted May 19, 2017 Report Share Posted May 19, 2017 everyone these days seems to be getting Fiesta and Focus ST's. cheap power. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dublet Posted May 19, 2017 Author Report Share Posted May 19, 2017 I strangely find myself attracted to: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cleario Posted May 19, 2017 Report Share Posted May 19, 2017 I picked up a fiesta ST 3 at Christmas for my wife. Weve been in Devon for the week with it, first time I've driven it for any length of time and I've really fallen for it. It did 43mpg on the motorway. I fitted the mp215 at pdi which helps the pull on the motorway. It more roomy then my celica and far more comfortable. The price I got from work I couldn't say no as it was a customer pulling out. Only downside im paranoid it's going to get stolen/parts stolen every time we leave it anywhere, even with the OBD relocate and 2 sets of locking wheel nuts, one ford and 1 Volvo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ams Posted May 19, 2017 Report Share Posted May 19, 2017 On 4/26/2017 at 20:25, dublet said: It's quite ironic Mercedes is seen as high quality when they have had some very serious quality problems. But then again, so have Toyota. The 2003 Avensis I had, had very flimsy interior and was falling apart in a way that my gen 5 or 6 never would even contemplate. The build quality and component quality on the European built toyotas is a world apart from the Jap built Cars. There are so many components on the 7 that never fail. But on the Euro built ones those same components fail regularly. The japs use denso which originally was part of toyota , the euros use Bosch / Valeo. Things like fans, window regulators door actuators just don't fail on the Jap cars but they fail on every Euro built car. Even gearboxes - the Euro's all fail at about 100-150,000. The Gen7 ones I can't give away apart from the 190 ones when they are abused and that's usually crashed synchros rather than proper failures like the Euro ones. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cal670 Posted May 20, 2017 Report Share Posted May 20, 2017 I thought Toyota had a strict build policy no matter where their cars are assembled? For example their cars built at the plant in Derby (e.g. E12 Corolla T Sport). Employees are said to do alot of overtime to make sure the cars are built up to the same exacting standards of the Jap built ones. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Old Red Celica Posted May 20, 2017 Report Share Posted May 20, 2017 Build quality is not the same as component quality. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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