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slybunda

E10 fuel?

Question

Read this on news sites that they gonna get 10 percent bioethanol in the petrol. Will our cars work on this or is it game over?

Pointless me spending money on preservation of the car if there is not gonna be any fuel around to run it on

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A mate in work mentioned something about this but I didnt quite catch what he was saying at the time as I got called away to a meeting, so whats this all about exactly?.

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1 hour ago, SpaceCowboys83 said:

A mate in work mentioned something about this but I didnt quite catch what he was saying at the time as I got called away to a meeting, so whats this all about exactly?.

 

putting 10% bioethanol in petrol

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Ethanol has a higher RON so detonation shouldn't be an issue.

It also requires more fuel/air ratio for correct mixture (stoich AFR 9% pure ethanol, 14.7% petrol 14.1%E10). When running open loop,this will result in running slightly weaker. Closed loop, it should be within the range allowed for automatic adjustment by the ECU.

 

The biggest danger is on turbo cars which are mapped with very little safety margin. Standard mapping on the GT4 is pretty rich when open loop anyway so it's only likely to be modified ones with tweaks to weaken the on-boost mixture. (ECU's / adjustable FPR etc.).

 

I accidentally filled up with some in France a few years back on a GT4 with aftermarket ECU.  I was running open loop and on the weak side for the cruising cells for ecconomy. It basically felt very flat and misfired a bit on some throttle settngs. This went away when I increased the master fuel setting a little. When I filled up again I was able to drop it back..

Edited by _Chris_

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Using Ethanol as fuel does little to reduce CO2 emissions anyway once you factor in the energy used to produce, fertilize, harvest, process and transport it. Its a nice idea but ultimately flawed.

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Agree with ams on that. Also found that peeps on celicahobby forums in america have already been running on e10 for a while now and no issues reported.

If more fuel needs to flow is there still some headroom left on our injectors? The usdm celica is detuned and puts out less power than a jdm and uk one so dunno if thats the contributing factor to allow those cars to work with e10.

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Will be interesting to see how much classic Ford prices are affected when this comes in. The articles saying old Fords will be among the affected models, aswell as older VWs and Nissans.

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Would have thought anyone hoarding a classic car would see massive value drop since there will be no fuel to run it in few years. Doubt a conversion is possible or feasible without an engine swap for something more modern.

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Fuel will always be available, just at a premium and certainly won't be any time soon. Do you think all these super cars, sport cars and every day cars will just disappear over night. Maybe in 20 years but they will always be the option for your weekend toy when we are running electric or hover cars as dailys

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Looks like we may be in the clear:

 

Here is a list of ACEA member company petrol vehicles compatible with using

BMW group: All petrol engine BMW models are cleared for the use of E10 petrol regardless of their year of manufacture but the minimum octane required should be observed according to the owner’s manual.

Mercedes-Benz: E10 petrol is cleared for use in the vast majority of all Mercedes Benz vehicles with petrol engines, except: first generation direct injection C200 CGI (W203), CLK 200 CGI series (C209) of the years 2002 – 2005; models not equipped with three-way catalysts, models retrofitted with three-way catalysts or produced with a carburettor. These are mainly vehicles older than 25 years.

Ford: E10 is cleared for use in all petrol driven Ford models sold in Europe since 1992 excluding: Ford Mondeo 1.8 SCI from 2003 to 2007. Personal imports not approved by Ford of Europe are not included in the above statement.

Jaguar - Land Rover: Jaguar: E10 petrol is cleared for use in all Jaguar vehicles with petrol engines starting from model year 1992. Land Rover: E10 petrol is cleared for use in all Land Rover vehicles with petrol engines starting from model year 1996.

Opel-Vauxhall: E10 petrol is cleared for use in all Opel-Vauxhall vehicles with petrol engines, excluding:  Models with the 2.2 litre direct injection petrol engine, motor code: Z22YH (Vectra, Signum, Zafira).

Toyota Motors group: Toyota: E10 petrol is cleared for use in all Toyota European petrol models made from January 1998, excluding: Avensis 2.0 L with engine 1AZ-FSE made between July 2000 and October 2008. Avensis 2.4 L with engine 2AZ-FSE made between June 2003 and October 2008.

Volvo cars: E10 petrol is cleared for use in all Volvo cars with petrol engines introduced to the market since 1976 based upon servicing and other conditions according to the equipment and material with which the vehicle . E10 petrol is not cleared for a limited number of S/V40 models with petrol engines produced in the mid-1990s with engine type 1.8 GDI. 

 

From

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.express.co.uk/life-style/cars/1009524/E10-petrol-car-compatible-check-fuel/amp

 

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So the MR2 isn't compatible then, what the heck do we do for those who have cars pre 1998?. 

 

I did come across this which might be encouraging for those with older vehicles.

 

https://www.express.co.uk/life-style/cars/1009524/E10-petrol-car-compatible-check-fuel

 

So its stating that the larger petrol stations which sell allot of fuel have to continue to offer the current grade to allow older cars to run. So we might be ok?

Edited by SpaceCowboys83

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Where is the problem with runnng E10 fuel? Is it fuel pipes, injectors, timing etc

I'm sure I've heard of ethanol eatting through rubber fuel hoses, so if this is the problem then an upgrade to modern pipes. Is it a new ECU program to compensate 

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There's nothing fundamental about Ethanol that will require complete new engines, especially at 10%.

 

It can be more corrosive, although fuel suppliers should add corrosion inhibitors to counter this. Worst case, it may require new fuel lines and maybe some other fuel system components. Not a complete engine.

It has a higher RON so no need for fundamental engine changes to avoid detonation. While blended with petrol it is likely this will replace other RON boosters and overall RON will remain the same.

The most likely problem is that it needs a slightly richer mixture. If the fuel system can't accommodate this automatically it may require some aftermarket changes, the simplest being an adjustable fuel pressure regulator to increase pressure slightly.

 

On 8/29/2018 at 13:33, ams said:

Using Ethanol as fuel does little to reduce CO2 emissions anyway once you factor in the energy used to produce, fertilize, harvest, process and transport it. Its a nice idea but ultimately flawed.

 

On the other hand, Photosynthesis which is fundamental to all vegetation growing converts CO2 to Oxygen.

 

Like most things in nature, there is an equilibrium with plants converting light, water and CO2 to Oxygen and food, then Animals consuming the food and oxygen and converting back to CO2. Reduction in vegitation is just as harmful as production of CO2. They should tax chainsaws as heavily as cars.

 

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