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bazz54

Penetrating / Release Agents

Question

This is one of my pets subjects - wd40 v PlusGas, and similar comparisons.

This YouTube video is the best comparison I've ever seen. Most of these products are only achieving a minimal effect. The American "Liquid Wrench" seems to do well - anyone ever tried it?

 

Note the safety warnings over acetone/ATF homebrew -damn right!

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xUEob2oAKVs

Edited by bazz54

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The same guy has got another follow-up video where he decides that Seafoam Creep is the dog's danglies 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=st8dkGzJWtg&list=TLPQMTgxMjIwMTllRjTDoHprQA&index=1

 

That's on ebay at £13 - just bought some.

 

@jim7564 has the silkolene product been tested against anything?

 

Data beats opinions everytime...   that's my opinion, though I have no data on that ;)

Edited by bazz54

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buy it use it see the results compared to stuff like WD40 and you dont need to watch a lot of staged youtube videos or wheeler dealer were nothing is ever seized

i used this on a lot of seized bolts and with a bit of patience it works well,

its also great on drill bits to stop them getting blunt

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2 hours ago, jim7564 said:

buy it use it see the results compared to stuff like WD40 and you dont need to watch a lot of staged youtube videos or wheeler dealer were nothing is ever seized

i used this on a lot of seized bolts and with a bit of patience it works well,

its also great on drill bits to stop them getting blunt

 

I would not be surprised if someone comes along and offers their opinion that nothing beats Plusgas. Why do you think your opinion carries any more weight than theirs? Having bought my first can of WD40 when it first appeared in the mid-1970's, and having tried various alternatives since, I'm not at all sure that any one is that much better, and that's why I look for test data. Do you really think the guy staged his tests, which seem to suggest that a homebrew mixture of acetone and ATF compares very favourably with any of the commercial products?

 

I would point out to you that for very little money, you could get a full chemical analysis of any of these products, and if any of them was exceptionally good, there'd be copy (probably from a far-eastern country) on the market PDQ. That's not opinion, it's a fact!

Edited by bazz54

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I tend to use WD40 or GT85. Can't really say which works best had good and bad results from both. If i know i have a job coming up that will require moving stubborn nuts bolts i tend to dose them up for a few days before doing the job. I know that's not always the case and have to do them as and when you get to them. I think unless your in the trade and have to use the stuff all the time that WD40 GT85 is OK to use and mainly gets the job done.

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Bazz 54.

I would say that technique, knowledge and experience also have a lot to do with getting the best results from any of these products.

I would also listen to the opinion of a person who has built/ restored many vehicles etc to a high standard or has had or is having a career working full time where they use the product over say someone who occasionally works on a vehicle or spends a lot of time watching YouTube videos.

 

YouTube is a platform to make money, that is its core business model. Pretty much anyone who creates and uploads a video to any platform has the express intention of getting that item viewed as many times as possible. Some people succeed with great interesting and varied content that appeals, others use controversial or “helpful" angles to boost views and likes. The platform drives publishers to gain likes and viewers along with subscribers and its tier platform is such that it drives people to push more and more content to make their channels a success.

 

There is no one fact checking these sites or looking at the authenticity of these claims. 

 

Just as with documentaries on domestic TV, or Advertorial data driven research, it’s very hard to get 100% clean fact driven data.

 

So in my eyes, opinion of people who have to use these products on a daily basis to earn a living carries a lot of weight, If a product is poor or expensive and the money you take home or quality of your working day is impacted by its performance, you look for the best you can get.

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8 hours ago, bazz54 said:

 

I would not be surprised if someone comes along and offers their opinion that nothing beats Plusgas. Why do you think your opinion carries any more weight than theirs? Having bought my first can of WD40 when it first appeared in the mid-1970's, and having tried various alternatives since, I'm not at all sure that any one is that much better, and that's why I look for test data. Do you really think the guy staged his tests, which seem to suggest that a homebrew mixture of acetone and ATF compares very favourably with any of the commercial products?

 

I would point out to you that for very little money, you could get a full chemical analysis of any of these products, and if any of them was exceptionally good, there'd be copy (probably from a far-eastern country) on the market PDQ. That's not opinion, it's a fact!

i was trying to be helpful here going by my experience with snapping bolts etc,have used a few others in the past but found this better than the rest,i am not interested in chemical analysis etc just that the bolts/nuts etc dont break,

so if i was you ignore my comment and go back on youtube etc 

as mentioned above its the technique applied to the item that is seized  that helps and this stuff doesnt dry anywhere near as quick as the rest,which gives it time penetrate 

 

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The 'test data' you mention is some guy doing a rubbish video on Youtube :blink: I wouldn't base anything on that at all. It isn't a proper scientific test with controlled conditions done in a lab is it now, his results are all over the place. Can't be sure each bolt is rusted exactly the same amount. His torque results could be totally wrong as he's removing them by hand not by a machine that can repeat the removal procedure the same every time. Even his torque wrench could be inaccurate, no mention if it's been calibrated or not. There's many variables that can skew the results.

 

I use Euro car parts 'maintenance spray'. It's ok, doesn't do a lot with rusted bolts but not much does in my opinion and it's dirt cheap. None of these fancy expensive sprays will come close to heating with a gas torch or induction heater. At least he did show that in the video.

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Agreed, there are so many variables.

 

I use what ever I can get on offer cheaply tbh, Heat is far more your mate when it comes to stuff like this.

 

Would love an induction heater, but boy they are a touch expensive

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I never use WD40 for anything anymore. Simply because the cans always seem to run out of propellant before the other contents have run out. GT85 seems alright, is cheap and has always worked ok for me. I haven't got time for data sheets and analysing the contents lol

 

for tough stuff it gets used with a hammer and a blowtorch too

Edited by 99GT

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Most of my experience with this has been with rusty Escorts and latterly 1980s Celicas :lol: . Always stuck with WD40 TBH,but its technique that plays a massive part.Doing things well in advance is the main thing,proper rusted stuff usually needs a week of daily dosage to get it to try to remotely penetrate enough to make it easier to shift,bar that then heat is sometimes the only real way to get things moving,but that has its own pitfalls.for example,trying to shift exhaust manifold bolts on a 30 year old 4th gen,without knackering the studs that lead into an alloy head by applying too much heat.Its a tricky process..I've found that GT85 seems to work better on the chaingear on my mountain bikes as a general protective lubricant rather than an all out penetrator. 

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2 hours ago, Alistair_GT said:

The 'test data' you mention is some guy doing a rubbish video on Youtube :blink: I wouldn't base anything on that at all. It isn't a proper scientific test with controlled conditions done in a lab is it now, his results are all over the place. Can't be sure each bolt is rusted exactly the same amount. His torque results could be totally wrong as he's removing them by hand not by a machine that can repeat the removal procedure the same every time. Even his torque wrench could be inaccurate, no mention if it's been calibrated or not. There's many variables that can skew the results.

 

I use Euro car parts 'maintenance spray'. It's ok, doesn't do a lot with rusted bolts but not much does in my opinion and it's dirt cheap. None of these fancy expensive sprays will come close to heating with a gas torch or induction heater. At least he did show that in the video.

 

Well the first line of your post say the guy is doing a rubbish test, but the last line of your post agrees with his conclusion that heating beats all the stuff in cans. You've doing nothing to convince me that it is a rubbish video, simply that you have your own opinions and don't want to change them.

 

Testing the effectiveness of releasing agents is hard to do (I've done some tests myself) and the guy in the video is clearly not working in a professional lab, but as someone who does work in a professional lab, I don't see that he's doing a bad job. If anyone can point me at a technical paper published in a peer-reviewed journal, I will happily look at it with all due respect.

 

Regarding respect for experience, I'd remind you of this. Throughout the world, and for thousands of years, "medics" argued that if people were ill then you had to bleed them to let the bad stuff out. This was going on in Europe right up to the end of the 19th century. When was the last time that you heard of anyone being bled? Opinions are always interesting, though sometimes no more than old wives tales, and some data goes a long way.

Edited by bazz54

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10 minutes ago, bazz54 said:

 

Throughout the world, and for thousands of years, "medics" argued that if people were ill then you had to bleed them to let the bad stuff out. This was going on in Europe right up to the end of the 19th century. When was the last time that you heard of anyone being bled?

 

Don't injure yourself on a car in Kent and end up in Medway hospital,you might get a shock :lol:

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3 hours ago, bazz54 said:

 

Well the first line of your post say the guy is doing a rubbish test, but the last line of your post agrees with his conclusion that heating beats all the stuff in cans. You've doing nothing to convince me that it is a rubbish video, simply that you have your own opinions and don't want to change them.

 

I only agree with the bit about heat beating anything in a tin. Even an inaccurate test will show this, as the difference heat makes is huge. 

 

It's not a video about heat vs spray though is it, it's comparing different sprays. I don't agree with his conclusion that 'Liquid Wrench is the best spray', because in my opinion his testing methods are nowhere near accurate enough. As you rightly say, it's not easy to test them. The difference between all these sprays is probably very small, so it would require highly accurate testing to determine the best one. Not something a guy in his shed can do.

Edited by Alistair_GT
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as i had nothing to do i though,feck i will watch this youtube vid,so why why why did he not try and loosen any bolts before adding any penetrating fluid to show they were seized,simply looking at them you knew a socket would loosen any one of them failing that it would loosen the threaded bit from the iron

so if thats a test and your happy with the results then the rest of us KNOW ABSOLUTLEY FECK ALL !!!!!!!!! :doh:

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Mate there is a New saying

Some people do, some people create and watch YouTube videos.

Massive difference.

Honestly If my life comes down to wondering exactly which pound for pound is the best penetrating spray on the market, then I feel I may have bigger things to worry about.

Fluid is only an option for a period of time, then there are tools and techniques that can surpass any fluid’s performance very quickly.

In terms of the medical analogy, I respect your opinion, However I disagree with your opinion. But then I had a Rover 600 and was only mildly impressed with it, despite it being the quick one. Your opinion is that it’s a very good car. We can all disagree over lots of things, that’s why its nice to have public forums.

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3 hours ago, Alistair_GT said:

 

I don't agree with his conclusion that 'Liquid Wrench is the best spray', because in my opinion his testing methods are nowhere near accurate enough. As you rightly say, it's not easy to test them. The difference between all these sprays is probably very small, so it would require highly accurate testing to determine the best one. Not something a guy in his shed can do.

In the second video, he changed his test procedure, as suggested by a number of his viewers, and also looked some other agents. His final conclusion was he got the best results from the Seafoam Creep. The key part of his test method was the use of his digital torque adapter, which was an AC-Delco model, which I'd regard as a quality bit of kit.

I'm quite amazed at the intensity of the disdain the guy has attracted; it may not be the definitive study, but no one is being specific about what he's doing badly. One thing he could have done additionally is some statistics, which would have given some objective analysis of the quality of the data. As I said before, in the absence of any other data being available to us, I'm willing to give him the benefit of the doubt and so I have spent a whole £13 of my own money on some Seafoam Creep, and time will tell if it makes an impression. Maybe next Xmas, I'll try a tin of Silkopen. I'm open-minded.

 

As for two litre family saloons, I really do like my Rover 600, which of course is a Honda Accord with some Rover body panels. I had a string of 600's as company cars in the 1990's and bought my present one in 2004. Unlike some Toyota Celica engines, the Honda is very frugal in its consumption of oil  and those engines will very often run to 250,000 miles and beyond  ...and the rear subframes last very well too :dance:.

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