toiletduck Posted July 26, 2014 Report Share Posted July 26, 2014 Hey guys -Just a quick one: is it normal for hubcentric spacer studs to come out (even when threadlocked) when taking out wheel nuts?I had to vice six or seven studs today to get the nuts off after they came out of the spacer entirely, and that's marked threads on them. They seemed to screw back on okay, and I've got the wheels back on now. Am I missing something? Should I be concerned about the threads looking flattened on the studs where I've molegripped them? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sh3p Posted July 26, 2014 Report Share Posted July 26, 2014 (edited) well flattened threads are never good, if the studs are stronger than the alloy (which they will be) they will have damaged the threads in the spacer ( by how much & whether its a big deal 1 time is debatable) what strength threadlock did you use? & have you used a stronger one this time? for the moment i wouldn't be too concerned but would make plans to change something be it the threadlock or the studs when the wheels have to come off again. just a thought why where the nuts so tight on the stud once they had come out of the spacer? they should be pretty loose with no pressure on them, you didn't get any loctite on the threads where the nuts went did you? when fitting the studs to the hubs use the 2 nuts method, tightened 2 nuts together on the stud then tighten the stud into the hub with the outer nut, sorry if am preaching to the choir Edited July 26, 2014 by sh3p Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
toiletduck Posted July 26, 2014 Author Report Share Posted July 26, 2014 (edited) I used blue loctite - all I can think was that it was raining when I fitted them and it might not have sealed. There wasn't any obvious corrosion or anything spacer side. I did hesitate to re-use them, but needed the wheels back on. Hopefully they stay put this time, not sure if it's worth picking up some new studs in case they do come out again so I can drop new ones in with full threads. I did run a nut down a couple of the studs and it seemed to bring the thread back up from being flattened, though obviously this wont have happened by screwing into the alu spacers - in hindsight, probably should have done that on all the studs.I think the old nuts starting to corrode may have been why they bound on to the stud so tightly - no evidence of threadlock there, but I'm a bit surprised they came out together so easily. Had to get grip on them to be able to take the lug nut off, and using molegrips any slippage ate the threads up. Did get better at this after having to do it a few times though.I got them finger tight and then put the wheel back on, as Stewart advised that just putting the lug nuts back on will tighten the new studs in. All a bit of a pain really! Edited July 26, 2014 by toiletduck Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sh3p Posted July 26, 2014 Report Share Posted July 26, 2014 blue loctite is a medium strength i would/do use red for stuff that i really don't want to come loose without applying some heat first, bearing in mind the hubs will become warm in periods of heavy braking... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
toiletduck Posted July 26, 2014 Author Report Share Posted July 26, 2014 (edited) I'll pick some up for when I next have the wheels off. Thinking about it, I made a mistake in that I assume the two nut method would have worked to get purchase on the stud to remove the lug nut. Arse. I *think* most of the marked stud ends are lug nut side rather than spacer side, but not super confident. Not really sure if I should be worried about the whole thing? Four studs came out of the driver rear side, one front drivers, one rear passenger, so I guess three have enough good studs to not be a concern - how likely am I to lose a wheel at some point (as that must be worst case!) Edited July 26, 2014 by toiletduck Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ams Posted July 26, 2014 Report Share Posted July 26, 2014 (edited) As Shep has said did you use the 2 nut 2 spanner method to tighten the studs in - can try and explain if needed. I've always done it this way - was a bit shocked when freaky said that you could strip the threads doing this - but I would be very concerned if you could strip the threads with the torque you can get using a normal sized spanner - bearing in mind that it's holding a road wheel on. Edited July 26, 2014 by ams Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
toiletduck Posted July 26, 2014 Author Report Share Posted July 26, 2014 I didn't - I saw the same conversation in a previous thread to just finger tighten and then the lug nuts would tighten them in, and not use the 2 nut method.I forgot to mention that I was changing over my lug nuts to some spline drive closed nuts instead of the rusting chrome plated open nuts I had - otherwise I could have just screwed the stud back in using the lug nut attached to it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alex991 Posted July 26, 2014 Report Share Posted July 26, 2014 I didn't - I saw the same conversation in a previous thread to just finger tighten and then the lug nuts would tighten them in, and not use the 2 nut method. This is the method I used which was advised by Freaky and I have had no problems, used blue loctite too Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
toiletduck Posted July 26, 2014 Author Report Share Posted July 26, 2014 (edited) Well, bit of an update today - I had the fronts off and two studs that came out yesterday swapping nuts stayed put. However, had a bit of a fright driving home. Got followed home by a guy who followed me for a good few minutes - I couldn't tell if he was flashing at me but did wonder. He let me know my nearside rear was oscillating like crazy, which is the one that had four studs come out. Clearly something wrong! I'd just checked they held torque at 70ft/lbs from yesterday too, so it's not that they came loose. Edited July 26, 2014 by toiletduck Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alex991 Posted July 26, 2014 Report Share Posted July 26, 2014 Surely you would have felt that? If the rear wheel was oscillating noticeably by eye then you would feel a horrendous vibration Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
toiletduck Posted July 26, 2014 Author Report Share Posted July 26, 2014 You'd think wouldn't you? I didn't at all, but there's no way someone is going to pull me over and call out the exact spacer that four studs came out of yesterday by coincidence... I'm a bit scared to take it for a drive to see if I can feel it! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ams Posted July 26, 2014 Report Share Posted July 26, 2014 Use the 2 spanner 2 nut method - don't go crazy with it but it's got to be better than just finger tight Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
toiletduck Posted July 26, 2014 Author Report Share Posted July 26, 2014 I'll report in tomorrow, but logically the lug nut is tightening the spacer stud into the spacer. Torque wrench still clicks at 70ft/lbs on that corner, that surely can't happen if tightness is the issue?I figure it either has to be that the spacer's hole is compromised and the studs can wobble in them, or, though I don't think it's likely, that I forgot to tigthen up the nuts to the brake hub. The latter would be a bit embarrassing but much easier to sort! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ams Posted July 26, 2014 Report Share Posted July 26, 2014 Problem there is mate - you apply the loctite - screw stud in by hand - it's not quite tight - loctite sets - you then put the wheel on and tighten the nut - that also tightens the stud - that then breaks the loctite seal - you unscrew the nut and the stud comes out as well Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
toiletduck Posted July 26, 2014 Author Report Share Posted July 26, 2014 Ah yeah good shout - didn't think of it like that. I did screw them in with a rag and unlocked molegrips to get them down into the spacer, but two nut should get better purchase still. Cheers for explaining Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
toiletduck Posted July 27, 2014 Author Report Share Posted July 27, 2014 Right, so - spent a few hours on the car with a mate who's been a mechanic for years. Turns out the original studs on the rear stand proud of my spacer. As far as I can tell, previously the rears were torqued up evenly, so the alloys were being held against the studs, and a slight gap off being flush with the actual spacers. The non-wobbly alloy had consistent depth marks from the original studs, and the wobbly side had varied depths around the circle. Last time it was off, a friend had torqued up the wheel in question, and I forgot to tell him to do it in a star pattern. On closer inspection, the alloy had a 1mm-ish gap off the spacer on one side, which accounted for the wheel wobble. I pulled both rears, and took an angle grinder to the studs and got them below the spacers. Wheels are now flush and stood on spacers instead of studs! Wobble seems to be gone. Didn't expect to have to do that, but it's a bit odd if I have freakishly long stock studs. I used the two nut method to tighten in the spacer studs, and the previous thoughts on them being compromised seems like it might have been wrong. I'm hoping the ten miles I did with mega wobble hasn't done any damage! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FreakyParts Posted July 28, 2014 Report Share Posted July 28, 2014 Just to clear up the suggested way of applying threadlock. My engineer suggested threadlock and finger tight, then bolt on the wheel as if you don't hang around with the fitting, the threadlock won't have set and you won't be breaking the threadlock seal when you put the wheel nut on and torque up. This way you will be torqueing both the stud (with threadlock) and nut upto 70lb/ft. If you do the 2 nut method with threadlock you won't get upto 70lb, but may not necessarily get the wheel on in time before the threadlock sets, then you torque the wheel upto 70lb/ft and crack the seal on the threadlock. So whichever way you do it, you don't want the threadlock set before you torque the wheel nuts up, otherwise if it's set, cranking the nut to 70lb/ft will crack the seal and you'll be in the same situation. And yes, I did use the word threadlock 9 times in the above post Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alex991 Posted July 28, 2014 Report Share Posted July 28, 2014 @Freaky - That is exactly how I did it and as said had no problems and because of the explanation you just gave I understand why now, makes sense Maybe people need to be advised to make sure the threadlock does not set before fitment @Duck - I have no recess in the back of my wheels so had to shave all 5 studs off both sides for the wheels to fit as my spacers are only 17mm. You can normally easily tell if the wheel is not flush while fitting as it will not simply bolt on like it would if fitting correctly. At least you got it sorted Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FreakyParts Posted July 28, 2014 Report Share Posted July 28, 2014 As I said to Toiletduck via PM, I always recommend any parts supplied are fitted by a professional. They'll hopefully know things like the threadlock and if the wheels are sitting flush. If you fit them yourself you take full responsibility for ensuring they're fitted correctly the same way as if you fit new pads or put a spare wheel on. We can advise how we recommend to fit them and what if any products we use but ultimately it's down to the customer to ensure the parts are fitted correctly. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
toiletduck Posted July 28, 2014 Author Report Share Posted July 28, 2014 In fairness, it might be worth sticking a little print out in with the spacers. I realise that anything on a car is potentially dangerous, but I'm getting these recommendations 1,000 miles after fitting them! Not trying to point any fingers or shift blame as obviously it was my fault, but when I asked for fitting details I was just told it's the same as fitting wheels, which obviously it wasn't Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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