Zuban
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Posts posted by Zuban
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No it wouldn't as with NA the engine has to suck the air through the sytem. The more effort this takes, the worse the car performs. It works well with FI as that is less of a concern with the compressor working to force air through.
the other way round, as pressure drop across an intercooler increases as boost increases, at ambient pressure you could probably negate the intake resistance by sitting your intake in the front bumper in a way that take advantage of the ram air effect. The problem would be finding a system that would cool the intake charge enough to increase power without costing more power in terms of driving pumps etc, or negate the added weight.
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Thanks for the heads up and yeah i think iv already worked out which people know their stuff on here
.In regards to those books ill definitely try source them out as im very interested in improving the beams through N/A power preferably .
And while i already know an intercooler wouldn't work on a N/A engine in its standard form/setup i much prefer bluntness and directness as things get done quicker that way and tbh iv a lot to learn about this motor
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Four-stroke-Performance-Tuning-Graham-Bell/dp/0857331256
that's the book.
I did a bit more reading on the ford supercooler and its not quite what I thought it was at first, its more like a storage tank air cooled by the air con compressor that you can use when you want, a bit like a shot of nitrous in a way.
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not sure tbh theres not a whole lot of facts out there about it, I do think its one of those things that in theory its a good idea, but in practice the complications and benefits just don't add up, otherwise it would be pretty common on forced induction, let alone on an NA.
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Those are very good books indeed well worth a read.
What wilo was asking wasn't about simply fitting an intercooler to an NA engine, but something more like a chargecooler where your pumping fluid that's below ambient temp to reduce the intake charge below ambient aswell. Ford did something called the supercooler, which used the air con to cool the fluid in a chargecooler, although that was still on a forced induction engine. Its not that silly an idea its just that in practical terms its unlikely to work well enough to be worthwhile.
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There is a guy in australia who made copies of the TRD ITB manifold, they were very good, they allowed the fitting of either silver or blacktop 4a-ge itb's, or any other ones using the same mounting holes, dont know if he's still doing them or has any left though. Its not a very cost effective way of getting power but they do sound great.
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i'm an old fashioned guy
also it was what the graphs in lol
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yup to be more exact though when dealing with ft.lb the formula is
bhp = (ft.lb x rpm) / 5252
and to work out the torque its
ft.lb = (bhp x 5252) / rpm
I think the emanage ultimate might be the best piggyback tbh, it has a reasonable resolution on the tables, 16x16 iirc? can advance ignition timing and can control the vvti, I have used one in the past before i went to the power-fc and they are nice bits of kit, i never had mine tuned though just fitted it up for a play with. I'm just not sure you will get the same results from any piggyback as you would standalone, thats not to say you wont though, the only other beams i know of that was mapped using an emanage ultimate did make very decent figures, but I cant make any comparison to the above as there was very little information on it as it was from cypris.
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on their email to me they said it would improve torque and midrange .....are these are separate factors to bhp and do you think I will notice a difference in midrange power or acceleration?
so for a grand it would be running at roughly the same bhp as the blacktop duel vvti beams engine then
bhp is a calculation based on torque and rpm, there is a lot of good articles on the relationship, its worth taking the time to get your head around. When they say 10bhp yeah they mean peak, if you look at a dyno graph though you could pull a bhp figure for any rpm point, ecu tuning the beams is going to show bigger gains throughout the rpm range than it will at peak bhp, this is based on the others i've seen.
The quality is poor but here is a copy of the dyno printout from RST's mr2 beams, mods were intake and decat with 2.5 inch exhaust iirc, and a link g3 standalone ecu, and the maf replaced with a map sensor, although the maf i think was left in place to use its temperature sensor. 183bhp and 155ftlbs at the wheels, prior to the ecu being fitted, peak bhp at the wheels was approx 157bhp at 6500rpm.
Personally whilst a dyno graph like the above is nice, I prefer to see a table of rpm increments with the bhp or torque value for those points, its easier to get your head round this way. So the above graph might look something like this approximatly :
RPM BHP
2500 61
3000 76
3500 78
4000 100
4500 130
5000 139
5500 153
6000 170
6500 177
in that example the peak was 183bhp at 6800rpm, but really thats just one figure, and not one you can solely base performance on, as in reality your accelerating through all the rpm points not just the peak one, so any increase in those figures above will translate into faster acceleration, peak bhp could remain the same but if you increased the torque, and therefore the bhp between 4000 and 6000rpm, but did not increase peak, then you will still be accelerating faster.
I dont know whether an emanage ultimate would give the same results, or the person mapping it, but there is quite a bit of performance to be extracted from the beams through ecu tuning, peak bhp is one thing but the gains in the midrange are much more significant. The example above has more torque at the wheels than the stock engine did at the flywheel through the midrange, thats going to be very noticable when driving the car as its like 20ftlb+ of torque above standard.
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The beams already has the spacer between the intake manifold and head that helps prevent heat migration. Tuning wise I think the best option is to look into a standalone ecu and mapping, you will get more power and driveability, plus it will then there and ready should you decide to boost or na tune at a later date. Takes a chunk out of the cost of any of those projects and you get the benefit meantime.
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I ran 16x8's on my ss3 and it had an abundance of grip and handling was good, 225/45/16's. That was on track and a little road, I ran 225/45/16's on 7.5 inch tyres on road too but in terms of getting the sidewall sitting square the 8 inch rims do a better job, I have 225 wide tyres on 7 inch rims on my st205 and its not a great combo they feel too soft. Wider tyres will handle increased load better and as you have added a few kilo's over the front end and some extra power aswell then you can put more load and heat into the front tyres so the wider tyre will help imo, just match them.
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the black top beams ecu is further from the red top than the 1zz-fe is, brashboy in japan used the blacktop power-fc in a kit that used it in conjuction with the original ecu, its far from plug and play, you can make a standalone out of the 1zz-fe power-fc far far easier. It would still need mapped.
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friend of mine tried unichip on his beams and they could not make it work, was a waste of time. He ended up with a standalone link g4 done by rogue motorsport. The only succesfull piggyback I've seen was a long time ago and it was an emanage, on a car in Cyprus so I have no details although I had full exhaust including manifold and intake, but it was making about 220bhp fly after tweaking which is pretty good.
Edit- actually got that mixed up, it was my friends who made 220bhp with the standalone, the one in Cyprus with emanage was showing 179bhp at the wheels, which is still really good. more details here, they used emanage ultimate, which I think can alter vvti but its been a long time since I had one :
http://www.mr2.com/forums/threads/7792-Beams-Dyno-results-registry?p=97005&viewfull=1#post97005
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My Celica decimated an EP3 on the way home a few nights back. Albeit my car has an extra 2 driven wheels and a wooosh tishhh sound.
Theres nothing quite like covering an ep3 in your faff's petrol fart as you leave it behind!
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from the sound of the test mule they had at the nurburgring it doesnt sound at all like its revving as high as the previous screamers so will be surprised if it revs as high
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also technologically every manufacturer has and uses the equivalent of vtec its now more a marketing thing like 16v was for a while although I bet this will be a pretty good engine with lots of potential.
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interesting that the civic lacks in some areas though
No TRC
No VSC
No climate control
No side airbags
*Seems celica is more safety orientated not a bag thing*
Plus points for civic
Seats look more comfortable and better (not sure about driving position)
Gear shifter
Better stance on stock
Personally speaking id love one BUT not worth the extra cost in my opinion for what you get....
However in years to come i will DEFFO be looking at getting this 280bhp beast! It apparently will have very accessible torque low down... Jst what the doctor ordered
vtec just kicked in yo! or was it the turbo.. urgh. Glad to see Honda have realised that NA engines just cant cut it anymore in terms of power and efficiency, should have done it a civic ago though.
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my corolla t-sport with a few mods, and decent suspension would beat a stock ep3 convincingly, but stock, and mod for mod the ep3 is always going to have the edge i think.
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sh*** all same as any other dealership employee, many haven't even heard of cars. go armed with part numbers, and also just go round the counter and use the parts database, I did that once, and I sensed a little confusion as to why I was able to navigate it as well as them lol...
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Just wondering how you're going to fit 2 sets of springs.....
Oh you mean Dampers
huh?
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What is wrong with people, why do so many people insist buying ecobox cars? Do they really think because they're new that they're better than older higher spec cars for a fraction of the price? They must truly believe that the stupid incencitives like the extra 10mpg, halfed road tax and cheaper insurance will add up to less than what they actually paid for the car. Although if people didn't buy them then I suppose our cars wouldn't stand out so much
yeah people don't look at things rationally or holistically sometimes, so end up paying 2-300 quid a month on a nice if dull new car either on finance or lease etc, but if you stick 200 quid a month into a bank account, that's enough to keep a faff well looked after each year.
my favourite is the "oh I couldn't afford a car like that!" when reffering to something like a faff or an evo etc. That person then go's and spunks 15 grand on new or near new 1.4 hatchback of blandness thinking they have it sussed. Thing is 15 grand will get you a tommi makkinen edition evo, and leave you with enough money to run it for three years before selling it for as much as it cost you if you keep it right, there is tons of cars far more interesting and exciting to own for that sort of money over the same time period. What they are doing though is absolving themselves of any hassle in ownership, which is fair enough some people don't want to be worrying about older cars and potential breakdowns etc, its just the argument that they cant afford it when they quite clearly can that's annoying!.
Friend: Where's the car?
Me: in the garage
Friend: What's wrong with it?
me: Nothing, just getting the wheels aligned
Friend: Where's the car?
Me: in the garage
Friend: What's wrong with it?
me: Nothing, just an MOT
This list could go on and on, people must think the word garage instantly means there is something wrong which gets annoying
My dad loves my driving my car but complains about me spending money on because "I wont make any money back on when i want to sell it" which i reply its my car, my money and I spend it on the things I like
if your old man is like mine, and has bought new cars or nearly new cars, just remind him that the amount he has lost in depreciation probably eclipses what you've spent on mods, and he aint ever getting that back!
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about the st205 i've had the following recently but i've generally always had this rubbish from people who dont know anything but insist on giving opinion s lol.
Oh you've still got that car? when are you going to get something decent?
why are you wasting all your money on that? (odd really considering they have no idea how much has been spent on it, and when they are informed that its less than the monthly payments over the same time period on there new kia econobox they look, well.. rather sad!.)
why are you modifying that, do you think your going to do a better job than toyota? ( they presumably worked for toyota at some point in the past and know catagorically as fact that toyota reached the absolute pinnacle of perfection in every aspect of the car and that it was tailored, individually for everyones needs. )
But your cars always in the garage you need something more reliable. ( the car go's to the garage once a year, its called the MOT.. and it has never once broken down to date ).
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would be interesting to see a rev 3 3s-ge boosted, i did the maths a while back on the dynamic compression and its really not that bad, the static compression isnt that high to begin with, and the higher lift longer duration cams lower the dynamic compression, plus the pistons are similar to a rev 2 3s-gte
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Some new suspension courtesy of MK Auto Repairs and Tuning.
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dave brookes? great guy, likes a beer
can bl00dy pedal too i tell thee!agree with most of the above, nice discussion containing most i've heard / read / been told etc over the years without getting heated.
zuban's point cant be ignored- in the case of the supra many of the bushes are spherical and allow movement in a particular direction, in which case a poly solid replacement would be detrimental, and in some cases wear much quicker than a stock bush. BUT- i imagine also that in most cases a set of new poly's would be both much cheaper than toyota replacements and perform much better than an old fucked bush.
yer pays yer money, yer takes yer chance
deffo, when you see a pro set up a track or race car like an integra, that's a prime example of it depending on purpose, they will use a mix of oem, poly and spherical bearing where appropriate, for example they retain the oem bushing for the trailing arm, as it has designed in toe control, the upper wishbones on the front will change the steering feel so they may be spherical or oem, and where the bush acts in only one axis, a poly bush is used, top mounts some prefer the hardened rubber as the steering loads don't all go through it so its less of a contributor to movement. A lot of it depends on feel as some people don't want rear steer so poly bushes will reduce that whilst some want it so stay oem. one thing is for sure if you have fecked suspension it will be better and probably help compensate for slack elsewhere.
Intercooler on N/A engine
in General Celica Discussion
Posted · Edited by Zuban
forget the rest, replace the water with a fluid cooled by your air con. This is what we are talking about, and remember at ambient pressure the restriction across the heat exchanger will be a lot less than when running boost and efficiency will not be the same, your standard intake with paper filters etc already provides plenty of resistance, and there are ways to negate that. The problem is you probably cant cool the fluid efficiently enough to produce a positive power benefit.